winter_blossom (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
winter_blossom) wrote2019-10-16 12:31 am
winter_blossom) wrote2019-10-16 12:31 am
Entry tags:
Shen Wei and Guilt vs Responsibility
Just this morning, I was thinking about Guardian while lazing in bed and repeatedly snoozing my alarm, as you do, and kept dwelling on one of the common fandom interpretations of Shen Wei that I puzzles me whenever I see it: the tendency to see him as prone to excessive guilt, self-flagellation, and considering himself "unworthy" of Zhao Yunlan. I can certainly see how that interpretation came about, but at the same time, it's markedly different from my personal reading of his character.
First, a disclaimer: I'm solely focusing on the drama version of the characters in this post; I know where novel!Shen Wei's guilt and self-loathing comes from, but am not interested in discussing that here. Characterisation of the main cast - and the two protagonists in particular - is so different between the two canons that I don't ever intend to mix them up.
Now to the topic on hand! My main point here is that having a strong sense of responsibility and duty, helped along by a steadfast conscience, is by no means the same as being guilty and apologising for everything regardless of whether you're to blame or not. The two traits might coexist, but in my personal experience, at least, the kind of people who're quick to blame themselves and verbally apologise are often not the same people who're willing to take responsibility in more tangible ways and actually do something to make up for their mistakes. And I consider Shen Wei as being firmly a member of the second category.
Shen Wei is, after all, the Black-Cloaked Envoy. He was the Dixingren general in the Great War, and had doubtless killed hundreds of people by the time he met Zhao Yunlan in YOHE. But when he talks about it to Yunlan, even as guileless and naive as he was in that arc, I still didn't notice any guilt on his part: neither for the enemies his army killed nor for those who died fighting by his side; only the firm belief that he must do right by everyone's sacrifices while ensuring that as many people as possible stayed alive at the end.
Then we come to his Envoy duties in the modern day: maintaining peace with Haixing by enforcing a treaty that keeps his people trapped and their powers restrained. He pardons those he can (I'm certain Wang Yike wasn't the first "criminal" he let free), banishes those he must, likely even executed plenty of repeat/dangerous offenders like Ding Dung. I don't at all buy that he carries any of those more extreme punishments on his conscience: he acts in a way that satisfies his righteousness, then quickly moves on. The scene with Zu Ma in the hospital is also interesting in this context. He's clearly sorry that a child had to die and that his best friend is so broken up over it, but again, I don't see remorse there: only sympathy and the very awkward situation of having to console someone over a death that he was technically responsible for, which is what I think motivated him to shove "comforting duty" onto Yunlan like that.
His apology to Da Qing for what happened with Da Ji I found to be both appropriate and admirable: he realised that he acted in a way that completely violated his own moral code, enforcing a harsher punishment than was appropriate based on personal feelings (however accidentally) and owned up to it. Conversely, when he rescued Yunlan from the MPD criminal, Lin Jing actually called him out on his rough handling of the bad guy, but Shen Wei's reaction was a firm "whatever." He's utterly unrepentant about giving the guy who nearly choked Yunlan to death a bit of payback (and I agree).
The only instance where he truly seemed to take on unwarranted blame was during the Cong Bo fiasco, but in that case, I consider his apology to be more a reflection of how uncertain he is about his new role in Yunlan's life, coupled with disappointment that his presence had brought danger on the SID the moment he joined, just as he'd feared. Also, this is Yunlan, and I think we all agree that Shen Wei's behaviour re: the love of his life is hardly in keeping with what's typical for him!
As for his being upset over Li Qian leaving university: now, this is mostly based on my experience with Japanese fiction than Chinese, but I think in certain countries, teachers (at least fictional ones!) have a stronger sense of duty to their students than they do in others. His favourite grad student having to drop out because of Hallows fuckery would definitely have been a blow to Shen Wei's sense of duty as a professor - which, imo, is just as important to him as his Envoy duties, albeit in a more personal capacity.
And perhaps the greatest instance of all: when he planned to take down Ye Zun. Did he seem guilty, even though he was basically plotting murder-suicide with his own identical twin? Not at all, in my opinion. He was simply hell-bent on fulfilling his duty as the Envoy, as Ye Zun's brother, and - perhaps most importantly - as the man who loves Zhao Yunlan, by neutralising that greatest threat in the best way he knew how. (Which may not actually have been the best way, but that's a topic for another day.)
In a way, this reflects another unpopular opinion I have about Shen Wei: I don't think he has any self-confidence issues, or even self-worth issues. He is, after all, a very proud and self-possessed man, and that doesn't come from nowhere. However, the source of that self-confidence and self-worth is totally different from what a normal person in our modern era would consider acceptable. To him, his own value is firmly linked to his ability to correctly perform his duties and fulfil his responsibilities. Which aren't necessarily always official: it's clear that he thinks of Yunlan - and eventually the rest of the SID - as his responsibility, too. I'm also fairly convinced that he knows and accepts that Yunlan loves him, but in his own mind, if he fails to protect Yunlan, he would become unworthy of Yunlan's love (regardless of what Yunlan himself might think). So it's not that he considers himself inherently unworthy, but that he's determined not to fail in his role as protector so that he doesn't become unworthy.
This tendency, imo, tells us a whole lot about his life up to now. I have no trouble imagining that his parents, no doubt figuring it was the best way to ensure their sons' survival during the war, tasked Shen Wei with "becoming stronger so that he could protect his frail younger brother." The failure of his first and - at that time - most important duty surely hit young Shen Wei hard. Following which he probably joined the army, and the military is definitely not where one can be expected to learn how to put themselves before The Greater Good. After that came The Alliance, where yet again Shen Wei was tasked with doing his level best to make sure that his side was well-represented, and, well, we all know the rest. My point here is that at no juncture in this long and gruelling life was there any space for self-pity/blame/doubt: only for doing his best at all turns. Add to all this his inherent saviour complex, and you get the Shen Wei we know and - a bit despairingly - love today. And honestly, I wouldn't have it any other way, as sad as it makes me sometimes.
Phew! That got a tad too long and rambly... But if you want to blame something, blame Guardian for inspiring the kind of Feels I haven't had in years. (If I didn't put this out there I felt I might explode, so I do feel pretty accomplished right now, and can't sincerely apologise for boring or annoying anyone!)
If someone actually managed to get this far: you're a champ, and I'd love to hear your thoughts, whether you agree or not or are somewhere in-between!
First, a disclaimer: I'm solely focusing on the drama version of the characters in this post; I know where novel!Shen Wei's guilt and self-loathing comes from, but am not interested in discussing that here. Characterisation of the main cast - and the two protagonists in particular - is so different between the two canons that I don't ever intend to mix them up.
Now to the topic on hand! My main point here is that having a strong sense of responsibility and duty, helped along by a steadfast conscience, is by no means the same as being guilty and apologising for everything regardless of whether you're to blame or not. The two traits might coexist, but in my personal experience, at least, the kind of people who're quick to blame themselves and verbally apologise are often not the same people who're willing to take responsibility in more tangible ways and actually do something to make up for their mistakes. And I consider Shen Wei as being firmly a member of the second category.
Shen Wei is, after all, the Black-Cloaked Envoy. He was the Dixingren general in the Great War, and had doubtless killed hundreds of people by the time he met Zhao Yunlan in YOHE. But when he talks about it to Yunlan, even as guileless and naive as he was in that arc, I still didn't notice any guilt on his part: neither for the enemies his army killed nor for those who died fighting by his side; only the firm belief that he must do right by everyone's sacrifices while ensuring that as many people as possible stayed alive at the end.
Then we come to his Envoy duties in the modern day: maintaining peace with Haixing by enforcing a treaty that keeps his people trapped and their powers restrained. He pardons those he can (I'm certain Wang Yike wasn't the first "criminal" he let free), banishes those he must, likely even executed plenty of repeat/dangerous offenders like Ding Dung. I don't at all buy that he carries any of those more extreme punishments on his conscience: he acts in a way that satisfies his righteousness, then quickly moves on. The scene with Zu Ma in the hospital is also interesting in this context. He's clearly sorry that a child had to die and that his best friend is so broken up over it, but again, I don't see remorse there: only sympathy and the very awkward situation of having to console someone over a death that he was technically responsible for, which is what I think motivated him to shove "comforting duty" onto Yunlan like that.
His apology to Da Qing for what happened with Da Ji I found to be both appropriate and admirable: he realised that he acted in a way that completely violated his own moral code, enforcing a harsher punishment than was appropriate based on personal feelings (however accidentally) and owned up to it. Conversely, when he rescued Yunlan from the MPD criminal, Lin Jing actually called him out on his rough handling of the bad guy, but Shen Wei's reaction was a firm "whatever." He's utterly unrepentant about giving the guy who nearly choked Yunlan to death a bit of payback (and I agree).
The only instance where he truly seemed to take on unwarranted blame was during the Cong Bo fiasco, but in that case, I consider his apology to be more a reflection of how uncertain he is about his new role in Yunlan's life, coupled with disappointment that his presence had brought danger on the SID the moment he joined, just as he'd feared. Also, this is Yunlan, and I think we all agree that Shen Wei's behaviour re: the love of his life is hardly in keeping with what's typical for him!
As for his being upset over Li Qian leaving university: now, this is mostly based on my experience with Japanese fiction than Chinese, but I think in certain countries, teachers (at least fictional ones!) have a stronger sense of duty to their students than they do in others. His favourite grad student having to drop out because of Hallows fuckery would definitely have been a blow to Shen Wei's sense of duty as a professor - which, imo, is just as important to him as his Envoy duties, albeit in a more personal capacity.
And perhaps the greatest instance of all: when he planned to take down Ye Zun. Did he seem guilty, even though he was basically plotting murder-suicide with his own identical twin? Not at all, in my opinion. He was simply hell-bent on fulfilling his duty as the Envoy, as Ye Zun's brother, and - perhaps most importantly - as the man who loves Zhao Yunlan, by neutralising that greatest threat in the best way he knew how. (Which may not actually have been the best way, but that's a topic for another day.)
In a way, this reflects another unpopular opinion I have about Shen Wei: I don't think he has any self-confidence issues, or even self-worth issues. He is, after all, a very proud and self-possessed man, and that doesn't come from nowhere. However, the source of that self-confidence and self-worth is totally different from what a normal person in our modern era would consider acceptable. To him, his own value is firmly linked to his ability to correctly perform his duties and fulfil his responsibilities. Which aren't necessarily always official: it's clear that he thinks of Yunlan - and eventually the rest of the SID - as his responsibility, too. I'm also fairly convinced that he knows and accepts that Yunlan loves him, but in his own mind, if he fails to protect Yunlan, he would become unworthy of Yunlan's love (regardless of what Yunlan himself might think). So it's not that he considers himself inherently unworthy, but that he's determined not to fail in his role as protector so that he doesn't become unworthy.
This tendency, imo, tells us a whole lot about his life up to now. I have no trouble imagining that his parents, no doubt figuring it was the best way to ensure their sons' survival during the war, tasked Shen Wei with "becoming stronger so that he could protect his frail younger brother." The failure of his first and - at that time - most important duty surely hit young Shen Wei hard. Following which he probably joined the army, and the military is definitely not where one can be expected to learn how to put themselves before The Greater Good. After that came The Alliance, where yet again Shen Wei was tasked with doing his level best to make sure that his side was well-represented, and, well, we all know the rest. My point here is that at no juncture in this long and gruelling life was there any space for self-pity/blame/doubt: only for doing his best at all turns. Add to all this his inherent saviour complex, and you get the Shen Wei we know and - a bit despairingly - love today. And honestly, I wouldn't have it any other way, as sad as it makes me sometimes.
Phew! That got a tad too long and rambly... But if you want to blame something, blame Guardian for inspiring the kind of Feels I haven't had in years. (If I didn't put this out there I felt I might explode, so I do feel pretty accomplished right now, and can't sincerely apologise for boring or annoying anyone!)
If someone actually managed to get this far: you're a champ, and I'd love to hear your thoughts, whether you agree or not or are somewhere in-between!
no subject
Like, you’re right, there’s a difference between guilt and responsibility and yeah Shen Wei does own up to his mistakes when it’s really his fault (the only exception I can think of is the Cong Bo incident but that one I classified more as him apologizing because he considered it a failure on his part since his powers were kind of revealed)
But overall he doesn’t apologize for every little thing, which I’ve seen in fics and it’s just meh.
(Also I finally get what you mean when you say people tend to blame Shen Wei for a lot - I get so annoyed whenever I read a fic that shoves all the blame on him =.=)
I think Yunlan could really stand to learn a thing or two from Shen Wei about appropriate apologies!
Yessss definitely! I’m still not over that whole blind arc when ZYL said Shen Wei ditched him =.= I get that it’s probably bad script writing but still, ZYL was the one who walked off first....
(Also sorry this got a bit long ugh I have feelings
no subject
One of the things I love the most about Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan's mutual understanding as two people who hold the lives of millions in their hands is how Yunlan himself never blames Shen Wei for his need to save and protect. The best example: at the moment where he was steeling himself to light the Lamp and flashed back to Shen Wei's sacrifice and everything he said about it beforehand, you could see that, despite being shattered over the loss, he was also so damn proud of Shen Wei's selflessness and bravery. It was one of the most poignant moments in their relationship, to me, and not something I'd ever deny.
When it comes to Yunlan and the Hallows, OTOH, I find that I sorely need to hid behind my headcanon that they're enchanting him for the sake of their own agenda so that I can overcome my exasperation. Yunlan, I know you hate apologising or showing gratitude (and irreverence is definitely a big part of your charm!) but please for the love of all that's Holy: this man is literally killing himself to protect you, maybe cut him a bit of slack sometimes!?
Don't get me wrong, though, Yunlan's one of my all-time favourite protagonists! (I tend to like supporting leads more as a general rule; he's the first MC in almost 2 years that I've actually liked) But that doesn't mean everything he does is above reproach, either. So going the "Shen Wei makes tons of mistakes and Yunlan has to fix them all" route is... Not my thing. I'd much rather they fixed things together. How much sweeter, more badass and more fulfilling would that be?
no subject
Yeah I totally agree with this! He was upset - obviously - but he never blamed Shen Wei for what he did, and I liked that he acknowledged that Shen Wei had planned all that without blaming him for not saying anything. He could have been shown as feeling bitter/betrayed by the secret, but they didn't go down that route and I'm thankful for that.
So going the "Shen Wei makes tons of mistakes and Yunlan has to fix them all" route is... Not my thing
^ This omg. I can't stand it sometimes when I read a fic and it starts off great but then the plot diverges into something that blames Shen Wei for every bad thing that happens in the story. Like - if it's once or twice, fine, but when it happens over and over again and ZYL comes in to save the day all the time, I'm just like, really?
Don't get me wrong, I love Yunlan too (although I obviously love Shen Wei a hell lot more) but yeah you're right in that he shouldn't have been portrayed to be seemingly above reproach throughout the show.
And yeah the whole - not apologizing thing is just, ugh. I get it too, it's part of his charm but, every time I see Shen Wei basically killing himself for Yunlan I'm just - please please just say thank you???
(Also the lack of Consequences is why I even wrote my fic to begin with XD because as much as I love the Shen Wei angst, I feel like he's the only one who ever seems to face any sort of consequence for his actions?)
(Also I like that headcanon about the Hallows enchanting Yunlan for their purposes, I'm hereby adopting it too, because you're right, the exasperation will kill me otherwise. just don't touch them at all Yunlan please and thank you?)
no subject
It's a novel-drama fusion, but is firmly tipped in favour of the drama, only borrowing certain elements from the novel - to really good effect! I dunno whether that's your thing or not, but figured I'd mention it just in case, cos you and I seem to agree pretty readily re: things that need fixing in Guardian. And this is definitely the most fulfilling fix-it I've read so far!
no subject
But yeah I've read that fic series!! I love it alot hahahahahah, I don't know how the author managed to make it work, but they did, and it's amazingly written.
I haven't read the novel myself - because chinese is very much not my strong suit - but I've gleaned enough spoilers to roughly know what happens in it. I was reluctant to read Changes at first because I wanted to wait until I finished the novel, but I'm glad I didn't!